tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post6476199078843319786..comments2024-03-26T02:31:48.024-05:00Comments on Trollsmyth: Cognitive Disson4ncetrollsmythhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-30688257124321321632010-03-16T09:19:38.158-05:002010-03-16T09:19:38.158-05:00Mike(aka kaeosdad): Sorry, I'm actually referr...<b>Mike(aka kaeosdad)</b>: Sorry, I'm actually referring to a <a href="http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/01/ages-of-d.html" rel="nofollow">dating scheme developed by James "Grognardia" Maliszewski</a> that fits the styles of play and interest I see lots of grognards shaking out into. I think it's a bit weak once you get into the Bronze Age and later, but...<br /><br />In this case, Golden Age play is heavily influenced by the pulp fiction of writers like Vance, Howard, Moorcock and the like, where the line between sci-fi and fantasy is blurry at best, if not missing entirely, and wahoo-gonzo fun is the order of the day. <i>D&D</i> is a game best played with an eagle's-eye view, you don't worry too much about things "making sense" beyond their adherence to the (rather sketchy and often vague) rules and structuring a narrative isn't even considered; narrative is what happens when you're bragging about your exploits later.<br /><br />In the Silver Age, there's a much stronger emphasis on internal coherency in the game. <a href="http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09/gygaxian-naturalism.html" rel="nofollow">Gygaxian Naturalism</a> (another term coined at Grognardia) is pushed to the fore; monsters live in (oftentimes rival) communities, dungeons include latrines, and funhouse dungeons need an explanation other than "hey, it sounded like a good idea while I was scribbling down ideas over my lunch break." You're far more likely to play with a PC's-eye view of events and verisimilitude becomes far more important.<br /><br />4e can work really well with Golden Age styled play because it has only a tenious grasp on its own reality; rules for using powers and dispensing treasure are more about what's fun and serviceable than any sort of internal coherency. Grognards, however, will still decry that emphasis on challenging characters rather than players, and shift of focus from strategic concerns to tactical.<br /><br />3e, by contrast, should have been the ultimate expression of Silver Age "decadence," with it's emphasis on realism, internal coherency, and the narrative adventure paths it gave rise to. Unfortunately, it's such an unwieldy beast in many ways and pushes so much of the work on the DM (including insuring that the challenges are appropriate for the PCs, something we were much more flexible about way back when) that again, grognards are going to balk at adopting it.<br /><br /><b>All:</b> Thanks for the great comments on this one. I'm really happy to see how folks have taken and run with it. :D Unfortunately, I'm off in the hinterlands helping my family clear some dead mesquite on <i>El Rancho Alpaca</i>, but I should be back home and with full access to the 'net by this evening.trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-79194468678961045322010-03-16T08:40:12.534-05:002010-03-16T08:40:12.534-05:00I said this elsewhere, to a grognard reply to that...I said this elsewhere, to a grognard reply to that very quote and I'll say it again... I think that it's a bit of not seeing the message for the words. <br /><br />It's not a matter of objective simpleness, or size of the books. It's a matter of grabbing attentions. I have a bunch of games that sit on my selves unlearned, not because they are hard but because I just can't seem to wrap my attention around in (Savage worlds, I'm looking at you).<br /><br />In a total vacuum, yeah 0e would be easier to digest than 4e. But its not in a vacuum at this point. I started playing with the old red box... and personally I can say I don't understand 0e. Not the rules, but the playing of it. I don't "Get" it. And I think that is more what he is talking about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-42255467169794707362010-03-16T02:26:06.098-05:002010-03-16T02:26:06.098-05:00By silver age and golden age, is that a reference ...By silver age and golden age, is that a reference to comic books? <br /><br />When I think golden age, I think escapism, metaphors, and action. <br /><br />Silver age makes me think a little more about idealism, continuity, and adventure<br /><br />The modern age to me is all about characterization, tragedy, and overly exaggerated realism.<br /><br />Not exactly sure how it fits into rpgs though...<br /><br />Are there rpg ages too? I've only been game mastering for a year or two so I have no idea.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-63174450464449621272010-03-16T01:12:42.977-05:002010-03-16T01:12:42.977-05:00None of which is to say that you can’t roleplay in...<i>None of which is to say that you can’t roleplay in 4e. The daily powers and treasure system make maintaining verisimilitude nearly impossible, but nothing prevents certain sorts of roleplay, especially the off-the-wall wahoo stuff some grognards seem to prefer. 4e is far more toxic to Silver Age play than to Golden Age.</i><br /><br />After I played 4e for the first time last week the first thought I had was "this is what I wanted from Heroquest, especially back when it was announced in the late 70s"<br /><br />I enjoyed it more than 3e I can say that...enough I'm thinking about trying to run it. That said, I think you've hit dead on in how it is both as divorced from the old school as 3rd and yet a potential throwback.Pulp Herbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02486803457210325703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-18899721570756557912010-03-15T21:05:43.009-05:002010-03-15T21:05:43.009-05:00I spend a significant portion of my day in the com...I spend a significant portion of my day in the company of 17 and 18 year olds, and I don't believe it is a matter of the collective attention span of humans shrinking... give these kids something they're actually interested in and they can be glued to it for hours. The problem is <i>motivation.</i> Learning a game like red box D&D requires effort, whereas you don't really "learn" to play an MMO so much as you start and receive a hands-on tutorial. In that respect, a quick play box might be just what the doctor ordered. I find that my students would rather learn by doing than learn via lecture or book study. (Most of them, anyway...) Once you get them in to something, attention span is not a problem. <br /><br />My gaming group did not like 4th edition, even the ones who <i>wanted</i> to like it. We all found that the fiddliness of it made the experience more cumbersome, not more streamlined. <br /><br />My perception of 4e is that it appeals to those who like solid, tactical situations, or those who like lots of "knobs and dials" with their gaming experience. For those of us who like a character who can fit on half a sheet of notebook paper, this will never be appealing, and with each "sequel" to the PHB that hits the shelves, it becomes less so.DMWieghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03682249561077936507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-76557077655300706382010-03-15T20:54:44.150-05:002010-03-15T20:54:44.150-05:00Just made the post. View it here:
http://synapser...Just made the post. View it here:<br /><br />http://synapserpg.com/blog/2010/03/15/the-delivered-experience/Greg Christopherhttp://www.synapserpg.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-1216120240295137822010-03-15T16:58:46.805-05:002010-03-15T16:58:46.805-05:00Damn Mike, you are spot on.
I am going to write s...Damn Mike, you are spot on.<br /><br />I am going to write something on my blog tonight expanding on your thesis.Greg Christopherhttp://www.synapserpg.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-85206539677308814772010-03-15T12:44:03.047-05:002010-03-15T12:44:03.047-05:00The 4e rules set is focused on combat, specificall...The 4e rules set is focused on combat, specifically to deliver a cinematic experience but I really do not buy the argument that it detracts from the aspects that grognards claim the original/earlier editions excelled at.<br /><br />"attention span" is sort of an idiot word for lack of complex thinking skills. The great thing about the powers system is that it encourages those without complex thinking skills, the "entertain me" culture, to start developing.<br /><br />This is the difference between the target audiences of the old edition and 4e. To play the original game you needed to think for yourself and draw from the wells of your creativity to build an awesome shared experience. Current culture focuses on having those experiences packaged and delivered to the audience with the audience focused on being wowed rather than doing any real thinking. This is where 4e excels. <br /><br />4e has found that sweet spot that makes the game accessible to those wanting the packaged experience, and those who do not want to or aren't comfortable with creating their own cool descriptions with just a single attack option, and gives them a set of premade options(which over time encourages the player to break and mold to their content and enables creative/complex/critical thinking) that delivers awesome imagery.<br /><br />4e taps into an audience addicted to the delivered experience, but has all the right tools to lead guide gamers beyond the want for the prepackaged fluff and develop their need to start thinking for themselves.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-38899463540110726032010-03-15T12:22:05.918-05:002010-03-15T12:22:05.918-05:00Hear, hear! Nice post that cuts to heart of the cu...Hear, hear! Nice post that cuts to heart of the current old school/"modern" divide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-71378305362360555462010-03-15T11:46:39.231-05:002010-03-15T11:46:39.231-05:00I wish I had the attention span to wade through al...I wish I had the attention span to wade through all the spewage about various editions, but I don't. What you wrote above is one of the best and actually cogent explanations of WHY there is a deep-seated desire for the kind of experience that the old school versions of the game deliver and why anyone might prefer such an approach to the shiny, new and hyper-cool new edition. If you boil it all down to strategy versus tactics, it all makes sense without getting into the whole Good/Bad dichotomy that frankly is just plain silly and a waste of time. Every edition has somethng to offer, and as consumers (ack!), we vote with our dollars, our time, and our attention as to which iteration we support. People are entitled to play what they will, however they will. <br />Thanks for bringing a very insightful perspective to this otherwise unnecessarily contentious issue. I'd like to see the energy wwasred on edition-bashing invested is actually supporting the editions people actually preferred. The OSR might develop into a viable market then...perhaps...netherwerkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08361800925618339097noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-73076647157602169202010-03-15T11:23:36.226-05:002010-03-15T11:23:36.226-05:00Thank you! I read that quote and went "Huh? B...Thank you! I read that quote and went "Huh? But I quit playing 4e/3.5 because I don't have the patience for their combat or character gen," but you've explained why it's a ridiculous idea far better than I could have.Nataliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15528192783751011497noreply@blogger.com