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It's effectively a different hobby, sufficiently alien to our own that it'd be difficult to translate techniques from one format to the other, and arguably a mistake to do so.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10325104373871864599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-63702528638538631352008-04-04T06:49:00.000-05:002008-04-04T06:49:00.000-05:00I'm not convinced that the Forge's techniques woul...I'm not convinced that the Forge's techniques would help them, for several reasons:<BR/><BR/>- Overpowered characters aren't <I>necessarily</I> a problem for these guys. Especially if they're RPing in an existing fandom; after all, computer game designers and TV writers don't need to make sure that the various characters are balanced, and someone <I>has</I> to play Sephiroth...<BR/><BR/>- The way the medium works, spotlight time is purely a matter of how often you choose to post, and how much you choose to post when you do. Which does, of course, lead to the risk of people with the most time and energy dominating the game, but I believe some of them have rules about waiting your turn before posting.<BR/><BR/>- The people best placed to come up with rules for these games aren't the Forge, who to a man are coming from a "traditional RPG" perspective. It's the people who play and moderate these games themselves, and they seem to do an adequate job of it (we can't make a judgement call on their entire hobby on the basis of the posts on bad_rpers_suck, after all...). Most rules for these things I've seen, googling around, seem to revolve around respecting people's spotlight time and the integrity of their character. I don't see what more is needed, and I don't see that the sort of personality clash reported on bad_rpers_suck is really going to be resolved by a system. OOC methods for OOC problems, folks...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10325104373871864599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-43984109454664936742008-04-03T15:04:00.000-05:002008-04-03T15:04:00.000-05:00If the above link doesn't work, try this one:http:...If the above link doesn't work, try this one:<BR/><BR/>http://community.livejournal.com/bad_rpers_suck/5480627.htmltrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-12217110688329247032008-04-03T15:02:00.000-05:002008-04-03T15:02:00.000-05:00Thanks for the link, Wart!The entry here just made...Thanks for the link, Wart!<BR/><BR/>The entry here just made my jaw drop: http://community.livejournal.com/bad_rpers_suck/5480627.html.<BR/><BR/>So they're RPing by, near as I can tell, just passing a notebook around between them, and scribbling in the notebook with pens and pencils. It's not just, "We don't need your miniatures and battlemats to have a fun time." Oh no. These folks are saying, "And we don't need your stinkin' expensive coffee-table rulebooks or dice, either!"<BR/><BR/>If that's the general attitude, RPGs as a business are doomed.<BR/><BR/>That said, and while I agree with what you said about these not really being "games" in the strictest definition, I really think they could benefit from some of the work being done by the Forge and its satellite designers. A rules-light framework that prevented overpowered characters and helped referee spotlight time would clear up a lot of the issues they seem to have with bad roleplay. Though I'd imagine they might be rather resistant to the idea if they're committed to the "purity" of freeform.trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-23931755268207906242008-04-03T10:46:00.000-05:002008-04-03T10:46:00.000-05:00I don't participate in fanficcy freeform roleplayi...I don't participate in fanficcy freeform roleplaying, so I can't give you a hub for it. While http://community.livejournal.com/bad_rpers_suck/ has some content relating to traditional tabletops, most of the posts there seem to relate to freeform livejournal play of the sort I describe.<BR/><BR/>I hesitate to call these things "games", because there doesn't seem to be much of a "game" element - it's all about the characterisation and storytelling. Hence why I think the people interested in it probably wouldn't be much interested in traditional RPGs - they get what they want out of their medium, and adding dice rolls and a structured ruled system would just hamper their creativity, from their POV. Some of them seem to have some experience with White Wolf games - after all, the Storyteller system is <I>supposed</I> to be aiming for the same sort of territory - but the whole phenomenon just proves to me that modelling RPGs as "story games" is a doomed endeavour: people who want to tell stories, I mean really, <I>really</I> want to tell stories, are perfectly happy just telling stories, and don't need rules telling them how to do it - or at least, not rules on how to quantify precisely how good a character is with a sword, or what dice to throw when someone casts a spell.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10325104373871864599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-80406008463027909102008-04-03T09:40:00.000-05:002008-04-03T09:40:00.000-05:00Wart,Ha! I knew the kids would be hanging out whe...Wart,<BR/><BR/>Ha! I <I>knew</I> the kids would be hanging out where I wouldn't see them. That's very interesting news, and I'd love to see numbers on that sort of thing. I knew there was some sort of freeform gaming, in nebulous orbit around the fanfic community. Just how large is this? Is there anything like a central hub that I could visit to get some sort of sense of the size of this?<BR/><BR/>That D&D is now brushed off as that lame old game Dad used to play is disturbing, but not horribly surprising. It also bodes ill for 4th edition.trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-56402972395356219052008-04-03T09:31:00.000-05:002008-04-03T09:31:00.000-05:00Was any generation better primed to love D&D than ...<I>Was any generation better primed to love D&D than the one that grew up reading Harry Potter, made Eragon and The Golden Compass best sellers, and who packed the movie theaters to watch Jackson’s LotR flicks?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes and no.<BR/><BR/>There's certainly an opportunity to sell fantasy storytelling and roleplaying to the Harry Potter generation. And the fact is many of them are <I>roleplaying perfectly happily</I>. They just aren't using RPGs to do it: they're going on RP servers on WoW or Neverwinter Nights, or they are contributing to numerous systemless roleplay forums and communities on livejournal. And they are ticking along perfectly happily like that.<BR/><BR/>Selling the concept of "RPGs" to kids is easy. You just have to be liberal about what you define as an RPG. What these kids are doing on livejournal may not resemble our favoured games, but they are undeniably roleplaying; I would submit, in fact, that it isn't roleplaying per se that's gone out of fashion so much as it's dice-rolling and character sheets that have fallen out of favour.<BR/><BR/>D&D is a venerable brand. It's also quite old, and that inevitably means that it isn't automatically going to be attractive to kids ("what, that game my dad played in school? But my dad's a dork!"). It might get a revival in the younger demographics, but designing a rules-light version of D&D and marketing it to kids won't necessarily do the trick. (A decent D&D movie could have re-energised the line, but that's unlikely.)<BR/><BR/>For my money, the game that's most likely to bring kids into the hobby in 2008 is the new Dr Who RPG from Cubicle 7, which they intend to distribute to big-name high street book shops and other places where Dr Who merchandise gets sold. In the UK, at any rate, the new Dr Who is <I>massive</I> with kids.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10325104373871864599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-82523511972367451222008-04-03T08:48:00.000-05:002008-04-03T08:48:00.000-05:00I certainly don't wish to be seen as saying that D...I certainly don't wish to be seen as saying that D&D can be as popular again as WoW, forget reality TV. Like you, James, I don't think most people are built to enjoy D&D, for whatever reasons.<BR/><BR/>I'm also not certain that D&D's problems over the years have been caused by trying to recapture the popularity of its early years. Like others, I really thought D&D 3.0 was what I wanted. It had everything I'd been asking for over the years: an integrated skill system, no level or racial limits, alterations to make fighters more interesting. And, as it turns out, many of those things appear to have snuffed the magic right out of the game. Definitely one of those live-and-learn things. Which of course doesn't mean that they weren't chasing mass popularity, either. It's just that every iteration of the game I've seen has been more interested in what the vocal majority of current players seem to want, and that's clearly the highly scripted, pre-packaged high fantasy you're not interested in.<BR/><BR/>Finally, <I>somebody</I> ought to be appealing to a new generation of gamers. That role has traditionally fallen to D&D as the standard-bearer of the hobby. I don't see that effort being made with 4.0, though, as I've said before, that could say more about my ignorance than WotC's actual efforts. If new players aren't being invited to join in the fun, that's bad for the hobby as a whole.<BR/><BR/>As for my gaming, the industry jumped the shark for me somewhere around Unearthed Arcana. I loved cantrips, and some of the magical items, but we never played with the new character classes like cavaliers or acrobats. It took nearly a decade of trying to beat D&D into a shape that could play <I>Le Morte d'Arthur</I> before I realized how much system matters. I find your thoughts running parallel to many of mine. So long as we can all keep tinkering with our own games, what the industry does has little influence on how I play, except as a source for neat ideas and inspiration. But I also recognize that I'm very lucky, being married to the best gamer I've ever known. ;)trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-53007420704866336762008-04-03T07:23:00.000-05:002008-04-03T07:23:00.000-05:00One clarification I'd like to offer on my post: I ...One clarification I'd like to offer on my post: I think the mass popularity of <I>D&D</I> was, overall, a bad thing for the kind of <I>D&D</I> I like to play. As <I>D&D</I> became more popular, the looser, do-it-yourself, pulp fantasy-inspired styles of play were first de-emphasized and finally fell away almost entirely, replaced by tighter, pre-packaged, high fantasy of the type exemplified by <I>Dragonlance</I> (a thousand curses upon it). Nowadays, the emphasis is different but the intent remains the same: to support styles of play I find personally uninteresting and that, to me anyway, run counter to the clear intentions of Gygax and Arneson when they created the game.<BR/><BR/>So, it's not so much that I think tabletop RPGs can never again be mainstream (though I do think it highly unlikely). Rather, it's that I think the quest for mainstream acceptance generally warps the game into both something that is contrary to the spirit of the originals and that poorly apes forms of entertainment better served by other media. <I>D&D</I>'s past success wasn't based on a market survey of what consumers wanted and tailoring the game accordingly. Instead, it was what it was and appeared at just the right time for what it was to become the flavor of the day. Ever since then, <I>D&D</I>'s caretakers have been trying to catch lightning in a bottle a second time and failing, to the game's ultimate detriment in my opinion.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.com