tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post3079310088207423237..comments2024-03-26T02:31:48.024-05:00Comments on Trollsmyth: Success Guaranteed!trollsmythhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-90315300306795757082015-08-27T02:00:30.064-05:002015-08-27T02:00:30.064-05:00I don't have a group right now, unfortunately
...I don't have a group right now, unfortunately<br /><br />I'd certainly never tell players to give up. I figure they can decide for themselves if they want to move onto something else or keep at it. Also, I'd be able to see for myself if they're struggling (big advantage over game/adventure designers), in which case I could throw some more help their way if I felt they deserved it (that is, if I felt they were struggling because I didn't do a good enough job)<br /><br />I don't know if you've ever watched a friend play a puzzle game before. I was big into <i>Limbo</i> for awhile, and my brother couldn't figure out this part involving gravity and boxes. I didn't want to spoil it, so instead I reminded him of what he knew and tried to put the problem in the right perspective to help him reach that "aha!" moment. That might be applicable to D&D as well, so long as you don't go overboard with the help. Players should still be challenged, and able to fail (as my brother did, though I think he got it after a break), so that they can feel satisfied when they <i>do</i> get it<br /><br />As far as an in-game time limit goes, I suppose that'd depend on the adventure. The werewolf won't wait for the players to figure out his identity before he strikes again, but Phandaal's long-abandoned tower isn't going anywhereHolly Oatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703437987958922954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-46673509162462011102015-08-26T08:47:57.031-05:002015-08-26T08:47:57.031-05:00ProfessorOats: Do your adventures usually have an ...<b>ProfessorOats:</b> Do your adventures usually have an in-game time limit? Is there some point where you tell the players to just give up, or are they pretty good about managing their own fun and willing to do that on their own? trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-89909988461372055552015-08-26T01:03:55.933-05:002015-08-26T01:03:55.933-05:00True, but I'm OK with them failing, so long as...True, but I'm OK with them failing, so long as it was because they screwed up and not because I did. Outside of a sandbox-style game, that might be a problem (especially for story games, but I don't play those)Holly Oatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703437987958922954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-4746966297957815742015-08-24T13:24:29.262-05:002015-08-24T13:24:29.262-05:00JB: I haven't yet played Gumshoe but I had hea...<b>JB:</b> I haven't yet played <i>Gumshoe</i> but I had heard it's designed to defeat this problem. Glad to hear it works as advertised.<br /><br />Similarly, the competency-porn RPG <i>Leverage</i> assumes success with every roll. However, a "poor" roll is one that's likely to invoke complications; you'll always KO the guard, but if you roll poorly, someone might see you. Or the guard might start having a heart attack instead of just being knocked unconscious. <br /><br /><b>ProfessorOats:</b> you still need to exercise extreme caution, though. Players can be amazingly obtuse in the face of "obvious" hints, or distracted by the smallest, most inconsequential tidbit. I absolutely agree that provoking questions is a good start. I'll sometimes drop in potentially confusing descriptions that invoke opposites just to lead to that sort of thing. But it doesn't always work; I'm very good at out-clevering myself. ;ptrollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-12068445850095205922015-08-21T17:49:23.282-05:002015-08-21T17:49:23.282-05:00Agreed, never make anything plot critical hinge on...Agreed, never make anything plot critical hinge on a skill roll, let them get more information from a skill roll perhaps, but they always get the information they need to proceed. As JB says, that is the design lesson from <i>Gumshoe</i>. And it is certainly how I try to run my mysteries.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-30233494614307688802015-08-21T02:31:00.045-05:002015-08-21T02:31:00.045-05:00"I usually square that circle by having the d..."I usually square that circle by having the designer of the dungeon wanting to protect a thing that is not the thing the PCs are after."<br /><br />Ooh, I really like that idea!<br /><br />I think there's another way to successfully handle chokepoints: they should be based on player skill, and players should be given enough information for success. The solution shouldn't be something that, if they were told, would make them wonder how the Hell they were supposed to figure it out. They should think "Oh, that makes sense! <i>That's</i> why X was there. I'm an idiot." Better yet, it will lead to them figuring it out<br /><br />A huge part of this comes down to the referee's descriptions, which I believe should be treated more as sources of information free of flowery noise. You are their eyes and ears; always think about how they can avoid some danger or discover rewards and build your descriptions around that, starting with the more immediate elements that beg players to start asking questionsHolly Oatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703437987958922954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-37727518317310421802015-08-20T17:28:40.053-05:002015-08-20T17:28:40.053-05:00Roger G-S: yep, that is an issue. I usually squar...<b>Roger G-S</b>: yep, that is an issue. I usually square that circle by having the designer of the dungeon wanting to protect a thing that is not the thing the PCs are after. That is, the designer of the dungeon wants to protect the Scrolls of Skellos and so hides them in a secret chamber you can only reach by passing through the door hidden inside a statue in the High Priest's quarters. But the PCs are only after the giant rubies that serve as eyes for the statue of the demon-god. <br /><br />Option two: when the players learn about the Scrolls of Skellos, they <i>simultaneously</i> learn that they're hidden behind the statue in the High Priest's quarters. Notations on treasure maps are good for that sort of thing, as are angry ex-acolytes drummed out of the temple for dereliction of duty or being too frisky with the High Priest's sacred concubines. trollsmythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01895349218958093151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-27603600007565464962015-08-20T17:22:23.053-05:002015-08-20T17:22:23.053-05:00This kind of trap is the reason the GUMSHOE system...This kind of trap is the reason the GUMSHOE system was developed. See Esoterrorists, Trail of Cthulhu, Mutant City Blues, Ashen Stars, etc.<br /><br />Yes, it is terrible adventure design.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28751902.post-4089488704458424562015-08-20T16:46:19.727-05:002015-08-20T16:46:19.727-05:00You're right about the adventure design of cou...You're right about the adventure design of course, but I find it interesting that this runs mostly against how an actual adversary would defend themselves and their stuff.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.com